Summary In this episode, Andy talks with Rich Diviney, a retired Navy SEAL commander, about his book, The Attributes: 25 Drivers of Optimal Performance. Rich shares his insights on the difference between attributes and skills, the concept of optimal performance, and how understanding these attributes can help build high-performing teams. They also talk about the importance of dynamic subordination, the relevance of attributes in hiring processes, and how parents can help their children develop these essential traits. The conversation highlights the need to look beyond resumes and skills when evaluating team members and the value of understanding and developing attributes for individual and team success. If you're looking for an innovative way to better understand and develop yourself and your team, this is a must-listen episode. Sound Bites "In stress, challenge, and uncertainty, when things hit the fan, personality tends to go out the window. We're running on these very raw things called attributes." "We train for certainty; we educate for uncertainty." "Skills direct our behavior in known and specific environments, but attributes inform our behavior in unknown environments." "A high-performing team is one that performs optimally even when things are not going great." "Optimal performance means I'm going to do the very best in the moment, whatever the best looks like in that moment." "Dynamic subordination means that problems and challenges can come from any angle at any moment. The person who's closest to the problem, the most capable, immediately steps up and takes lead." "If someone is unwilling to take criticism, they are unwilling to understand what they're doing wrong. They're unwilling to step back and cede control. That is a dangerous place to be in." Chapters 00:00 Introduction 02:04 Start Of Interview 04:02 Differentiating Skills From Attributes 07:20 Developing Attributes In High-Stress Environments 07:07 Story Of The Non-Swimmer At SEAL Training 08:45 Attributes Vs Character 09:33 The Role Of Context And Environment 12:19 Senior Leaders Who Get Defensive 16:15 The Role Of Narcissism And Optimal Performance 19:39 Peak Performance Vs Optimal Performance 31:26 Training For Certainty Vs. Educating For Uncertainty 33:25 Attributes In Marriage And Parenting 38:43 Wrap-Up Of Interview 39:07 Andy Comments After The Interview 42:02 Outtakes Learn More You can learn more about Rich and the attributes at TheAttributes.com. Prepare to Pass Your Project Management Certification Exam We regularly help people just like you prepare and pass their PMP and CAPM certification exams. If you or someone you know is thinking about pursuing project management certification, contact us! We'd love to help you earn your credential. Learn more and enroll at i-leadonline.com/PMSeries. Thank you for joining me for this episode of The People and Projects Podcast! Talent Triangle: Power Skills   The following music was used for this episode: Music: Echo by Alexander Nakarada License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license Music: Funny by Frank Schroeter License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license