This is part 2 of an exclusive conversation between Jonathan Pageau and John Vervaeke recorded in Toronto recently.  In it John and Jonathan reflect on the recent ‘War on Reality’ piece with Paul Kingsnorth and Mary Harrington: https://youtu.be/x4kms2jkKbA  They ask whether we have replaced virtue with value. They also take a turn into the question of the occult, where Jonathan and John talk about whether concepts such as ‘demons’ can be explained as independently existing patterns of reality.