Our classrooms have the potential to be spaces where we learn how to have conversations about challenging topics with respect, curiosity, and kindness. Contrary to the voices that say race is not an appropriate topic for school, in this episode we're saying just the opposite. My guests are Matthew Kay, author of the book, Not Light, But Fire: How to Lead Meaningful Race Conversations in the Classroom, and Jennifer Orr, Kay's co-author of the follow-up book, We're Gonna Keep On Talking: How to Lead Meaningful Race Conversations in the Elementary Classroom. I talked with Matt and Jen about the value of discussion as a teaching tool, the elements that are necessary for creating a healthy ecosystem for race conversations, some strategies for having these conversations in organic and authentic ways, and a message for teachers working in states that are hostile to conversations about race. Thanks to NoRedInk and The Modern Classrooms Project for sponsoring this episode. You can find links to both books and a full transcript of our conversation at cultofpedagogy.com/pod/.