As an Organizational Dynamics Expert, Consultant, and Author, Esther Derby talks about the fact that organizations should not strive to become well-oiled machines and that in order to be listened to, you must listen to others. Every few weeks as part of The Heartbeat, I ask one question to a founder, CEO, or business owner I respect about their biggest leadership lesson learned. This week, I interview Esther Derby, Organizational Dynamics Expert, Consultant, and Author. Have you been enjoying these Heartbeat episodes, lately? If so, it’d mean the world to us if you wrote us a review in iTunes. The more reviews we have, the more we’re able to share all our lessons from leaders. Thank you! 3 CLAIRE: Hi everyone. I’m Claire Lew and I’m the CEO of Know Your Team: software that helps you avoid becoming a bad boss. And speaking of bad bosses, I’ve got with me someone who has advised and helped… [Laughs] No, Esther is possibly the opposite of a bad boss, but somebody who’s helped so, so many CEOs, founders, managers become better bosses. I have with me today Esther Derby, who is an organizational dynamics expert and consultant and whose work I’ve really admired and I love your writing. I love your thinking on so many topics. And Esther has written three books, all on whether it’s Agile Retrospectives and thinking through agile teams, behind closed doors, and the mistakes that a lot of leaders make, but most recently wrote a book called, I believe it’s the 7 Rules for Positive, Productive Change. So, we can definitely talk about that. It comes out I believe in August but you can preorder it on Amazon right now. But aside from working very closely with teams, in person I know Esther, you’re also developing an online course that’ll be coming out soon. And you got your start as a programmer. So your career has spanned all sorts of forms, but a real treat truly to have you here today. And I’m excited to ask you this one question about leadership. ESTHER: I’m thrilled to be here, so thanks for inviting me. CLAIRE: Of course. All right, Esther. ESTHER: I’m ready. CLAIRE: You’re ready? Okay. Here’s the question I’m going to throw at you. So the question that I’ve been asking leaders and thinkers who I admire is what’s one thing or several things that you wish you would have learned earlier as a leader? ESTHER: That could be a long list, but I think one of the most important things was that organizations are not well oiled machines and expecting them to work like a well oiled machine is an exercise in futility and actually some can lead to really, I want to say horrible management decisions. CLAIRE: Sure. ESTHER: Because organizations are full of people who are messy and complicated and they don’t fit in neat little boxes. And if you’re not prepared to deal with that as a manager, I think it’s a really difficult job. If your expectations are that if everybody just does their job, all will be well, and we’ll work like a well oiled machine. CLAIRE: Absolutely. ESTHER: They just like that. CLAIRE: I’m smiling right now because I think your insight is so astute about our very unrealistic expectation around team performance and to your point, humans, we are fallible. Surprise. We are messy. Surprise. I’m curious, you’ve worked so closely with so many brilliant, intelligent, savvy managers and leaders. Why is it that they don’t, I don’t want to say lower their expectations, but calibrate their expectations a little bit more realistically, like when have you seen this happen in the client work that you’ve done and maybe in your own experience as well? ESTHER: I liked the word you chose, calibrate their expectations because it’s absolutely not about lowering. CLAIRE: Sure. ESTHER: But I think we had this legacy of