Nearly two years into his Presidency, Joe Biden, with an executive order, announced a plan to forgive up to twenty thousand dollars in student debt for millions of borrowers. This plan, the first mass student-debt cancellation of its kind, will come at a big cost: an estimated four hundred billion dollars. This figure, released by the Congressional Budget Office, has fired up opponents, and, earlier this week, the first legal challenge to the policy was filed: a suit from a conservative law firm representing a plaintiff who claims that the plan will force borrowers in some states to pay undue taxes on the forgiven amount. And that may only be the beginning. Republican lawmakers have pledged to keep the challenges coming, to chip away at the policy, and perhaps even take it to the Supreme Court. The New Yorker staff writer Andrew Marantz has written about the politics of debt cancellation for newyorker.com. He speaks with the guest host Tyler Foggatt about populism in a polarized political environment, the triumphs of Occupy Wall Street, and the practical challenges of enacting centrist Democrats’ watered-down progressive reforms.