In Episode 14 of The Real Podcast, Mayrah yarns with writer and editor, Ellen van Neerven. Ellen's debut novel ‘Heat and Light’ was shortlisted for a Stella Prize in 2015 and won Ellen the 2016 NSW Premier’s Literary Award for Indigenous Writers. Ellen delves into the inspiration and process behind her work, chatting about the impacts of being labelled as one of the nation’s best young writers, the complexities that exist around representations of Aboriginal people, the unique qualities of First Nations writing, and how to keep the black voice safe in the publishing industry.