The recent success of large transformer models in AI raises new questions about the limits of current strategies: can we expect deep learning, reinforcement learning and other prosaic AI techniques to get us all the way to humanlike systems with general reasoning abilities? Some think so, and others disagree. One dissenting voice belongs to Francesca Rossi, a former professor of computer science, and now AI Ethics Global Leader at IBM. Much of Francesca’s research is focused on deriving insights from human cognition that might help AI systems generalize better. Francesca joined me for this episode of the podcast to discuss her research, her thinking, and her thinking about thinking.