In this episode of the DemSecurity Podcast, Tigran Grigoryan , head of the RCDS, hosted international Human Rights lawyer Sheila Paylan. Together, they delved into various aspects of the relationship between international law and the events unfolding in Nagorno-Karabakh.  They started by questioning the effectiveness of the rules-based order in preventing, regulating, and responding to such situations. Additionally, they highlighted how these norms could be manipulated to serve the specific interests of states, and how the nature of political regimes could influence the use they make of it. Finally, Sheila Paylan explained the human-rights approach to international law that she advocates. This podcast was filmed in July 2023 and produced by Boon TV.