This is the fourth installment of our conversation with Dr. Joe Layng about schedules of reinforcement. In this episode we begin with the distinction Joe is making between contingencies and dependencies, and a program versus a schedule. This takes us to this question: Given this distinction between shaping and maintaining, at what point does an exploration of schedules become relevant? As you stabilize behaviors, how much variability do you need to maintain? How does all of this relate to the loopy training teaching strategy? One of the main takeaways from the conversation is how sensitive all organisms are to their environment. Their environment includes changes to the schedules of reinforcement.