John Ortberg returns to the podcast and breaks down the divide between leadership and spiritual formation. John and Carey discuss the old adage, "If you're not a leader, you're a loser." Is it true? Plus, John offers his reflections on Willow Creek and Church moral failures.  Show Notes On The Rise Newsletter Preaching Cheat Sheet Watch on YouTube Follow @careynieuwhof Follow @theartofleadershipnetwork   This episode is sponsored by:   THE ART OF PREACHING What if you were confident your sermon would connect and speak the truth of the Gospel clearly every time you preached?  My online program, The Art of Preaching, will walk you through every aspect of becoming a better communicator and preaching better sermons.  You can learn more by visiting TheArtOfPreachingCourse.com   GLOO Let Gloo help with some of your planning this Easter, allowing YOU more time for fostering relationships, delivering powerful messages, and creating lasting memories for your community. Check out Discover, an all-in-one marketplace for worship music, kids curriculum, and more.      Brought to you by The Art of Leadership Network