This is an episode about a rising superpower (China) and its ruler (Xi Jinping). It’s also a conversation about what their rise means for an isolated, thinly-populated, complacent country to their south (Australia). Our guest, Kevin Rudd, served as Australia’s 26th Prime Minister and as Foreign Minister. Before politics, he was a China scholar and a diplomat in Beijing. After politics, he was appointed the inaugural President of the Asia Society Policy Institute in New York — a “think-do” tank dedicated to resolving policy challenges between Asia and the West. He is currently writing a Ph.D. thesis on Xi at the University of Oxford. Selected links Follow Kevin: Website | Twitter ‘The Complacent Country’, essay/audio by Kevin Rudd Robert J. Hawke: A Biography, by Blanche d’Alpuget Dog Days, by Ross Garnaut Deng Xiaoping and the Transformation of China, by Ezra Vogel Destined for War, by Graham Allison The Life of Brian, by Monty Python Kevin’s 2008 speech at Peking University Topics discussed What is Kevin’s current position on Australian politics: foetal or comatose? [5:12] Reflections on Bob Hawke. [5:55] The Complacent Country. [8:51] When was the moment Kevin first realised China was going to be a ‘big kid on the block’? [13:48] The Chinese are forensic in analysing Western politics. [18:32] When did Kevin first meet Xi Jinping and what was the context? [20:56] What is Xi like as a man? [22:56] Thomas Carlylse’s view of history. [28:03] What is Xi’s ‘worldview’? [30:27] The story of Kevin’s experience translating in the Great Hall of the People. [33:50] What books or sources would Kevin recommend to the average educated reader who wants to better understand China without necessarily devoting a whole career to the subject? [39:46] Is international relations just human psychology writ large, and what are the prospects of war between China and the US? [42:31] Can we apply any lessons from Graham Allison’s case studies, that didn’t end in war, to the China-US relationship? [49:17] Document No. 9 and the stark cultural differences between China and the West. [54:54] Where do the limits of Xi and China’s geopolitical ambitions lie? [59:32] How does Xi feel about Australia? [1:06:22] How does Australia secure itself in the twenty-first century? [1:09:11] Zhengyou, not pengyou. [1:17:15]