After 34 years in the police and 25 years in homicide, it was former Detective Inspector Gary Jubelin’s job to catch killers. He worked on some of the biggest criminal cases in Australia, including the Lindt Cafe siege, the Bowraville murders, and the gruesome killing of drug dealer Terry Falconer. But it was the case of William Tyrrell that would cost Gary his career. In 2020, he was convicted for illegally recording four conversations with a person of interest in that investigation. Overnight, he was taken off a case he’d spent four years searching for answers on. And now, many in his old career refuse to associate with him.  So instead, he’s been befriending criminals who’ve done their time. Hardened ones…. the ones he used to be tasked with locking up. He wants to understand badness from the other side, to unpack what makes a human do evil things.  He joins Gemma Bath today to talk about that journey. CREDITS Guest: Gary Jubelin You can find out more about his new book Badness here. Host: Gemma Bath Executive Producer: Gia Moylan Audio Producer: Madeline Joannou GET IN TOUCH: Feedback? We’re listening! Call the pod phone on 02 8999 9386 or email us at [email protected]   Join our closed Facebook community to discuss this episode. Just search True Crime Conversations on Facebook or follow this link https://bit.ly/tcc-group  If any of the contents in this episode have caused distress, know that there is help available via Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636 Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures. Just by reading or listening to our content, you’re helping to fund girls in schools in some of the most disadvantaged countries in the world - through our partnership with Room to Read. We’re currently funding 300 girls in school every day and our aim is to get to 1,000. Find out more about Mamamia at mamamia.com.au  Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.